Scrum.org社亚博一百送一百区播客——专业敏捷领袖——第1部分
在这节课中Scrum.org社区的播客,Kurt Bittner 亚博一百送一百PST罗恩Eringa和PST Laurens Bonnema加入主机戴夫西方讨论一些主题的新书,的专业灵活的领袖:领导者的通往成长成熟的敏捷团队和组织,包括:
——传统的领导和敏捷领导之间的区别
-自我管理团队
——领导风格
——给控制的概念和你一起工作的人
——想法信任
- - - - - -更多!
成绩单
戴夫:西部
你好,欢迎来到Scrum.org社区播客。亚博一百送一百我是你的主人,戴夫。这是播客的Scrum的家。和我们通常功能,专业的Scrum培训师,客户使用的是专业的Scrum。与我们,今天我们很幸运,有两个专业的Scrum培训师和一个Scrum.org团队的成员谈论他们写的新书叫做专业敏捷的领袖。所以我,我兴奋地学习一点关于这本书的作者和与大家分享其中的一些观察,因为领导是很难,所以。所以我想欢迎Kurt Bittner。欢迎来到播客,库尔特。和Laurens Bonnema。欢迎来到播客。 And then Ron Eringa. Great people. We've got people from Colorado and the Netherlands. It's going to be an international podcast all around. Gentleman, thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. You're welcome. Thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah, great. Great. Now, as you can hear, there's a few of us on this on this podcast. So sometimes we may speak over each other. Just, you know what it's like, even though we've had three years of using Zoom continuously, practice makes perfect. Right? So the first question and Ron, I'll, I'll hit you up on this, because just just because, and hopefully everybody will vote in and provide some interesting perspective on this. But professional agile leadership. In a nutshell, what is it? That's the name of the book? But what is it?
罗恩Eringa:
是的,这是个很好的问题。和我想的是这本书的摘要,马上在这个问题,我认为首先为什么采用敏捷的组织,也就是,很多原因是改善上市时间处理不断变化的优先事项,提高生产力,这一类的东西,对吧?这是,这是许多组织开始采用敏捷性的原因。如果你谈论专业敏捷的领袖,我认为这是所有的人正在帮助组织实现这些结果。的领导风格是什么你需要完成,我认为一切都是根深蒂固的,组织正试图建立一个组织,更重要的是团队的基础,更基于决策、团队中你可以使用基于团队的决策,提高这一次市场更快地处理这些不断变化的优先事项,因为我认为需要采取的决定,你知道,大部分的知识,在团队正在开发的产品或服务,许多组织构建。所以我认为这是领导的能力去理解如何构建团队真的在自我管理的能力,我们使用这个词在scrum指南。自我管理团队是一个概念,你知道,许多组织讨论,但如果你看看真正的自我管理的能力,我认为这是领袖的由来,如何促进一个团队能自我管理的环境?我认为这是敏捷领导是什么给我。这说得通吗?
戴夫:西部
是的,不,我的意思是,我想,你知道,以人民为中心的元素,自我管理,自下而上的情报,你知道的,这些东西都是有点不一样,有很多的不同。所以我猜,谈论什么差异,因为我认为这是一个非常好的位置的东西,有什么不同吗?也许里昂,你可以谈论这个答案。有传统的领导和敏捷领导有什么区别?你知道,什么,什么,什么是并列,你知道的,你可以看到,,哦,一个是红色的。,一个绿色的吗?什么,有什么区别?
劳伦斯Bonnema:
如果你看频谱的两端,正确的,所以从一个非常古典,更多的主导风格的领导者,将一端的旅程,我们在书中描述,一个经理实际上那些领导人的倍数是一个环境,本质上是很正常的告诉人们要做什么。也,这不是让人皱眉头?,它实际上是一件好事。这是一个系统优化的这种类型的领导行为。这就是这就是为什么那些领导人采取行动。如果你想创建更多的自我管理的团队,承担更多的责任,这也意味着他们需要成长,需要成长与他们或少,有些甚至在他们面前,你需要意识到你需要同样的旅程。所以一个领导者不能停留在过去。我刚刚描述的决定,他们也需要把团队旅行,他们的旅程,然后引导他们走向独立风格的表演,需要放手的仆人领导,我想叫它比仆人的仆人领导支持性的领导,因为这是,真是你培养团队的情况下可以有效地放手,只需要一步,当一些侧面什么的,你真的不需要做大量的主导,告诉他们要做什么了。当然,如果人们使用,他们也应该得到一个领导者,伴随着他们的道路上,可以这么说。这就是我们在书中描述。 So the whole journey, not just being there, not just who you need to become, and then magically, you become that, but it's really going from that one end to a more supportive style of leadership.
戴夫:西部
这听起来非常困难。因为,你知道,我立即与你,你开始做的事情,你知道,你开始,你会说,好吧,我们希望每个人都是仆人领袖,你知道,你想介绍的仆人领导下,我们想主要是自我管理,哦,请稍候,我将告诉你自我管理,你知道,这是相反的仆人领导。哦,稍等。所以我要一个仆人领导。所以我要让你去做。但是你不想成为自我管理。这是你怎么去呢?我不知道。库尔特,我,你有很多经验。我不是说你老了。 That's always awful to say it like that. But you've had lots of experience doing that. How do you do it? Well, it's not doing it while it's doing it. Where do you begin? I guess is that simple question?
Kurt Bittner:
我认为,真正的理解关键一点是它不是,你不经过一夜之间就像一个完整的状态变化。这是一个旅程,劳伦说,领导人,和团队。所以,你知道,在这个意义上,最糟糕的事情你可以做,作为一个领导者是团队去说,好了,今天,你知道,昨天,你是传统管理的今天,你自我管理的,祝你好运。这是真正意义上的领袖有责任帮助团队成长自我管理。这可能会非常小,基本上小决定。这是他们获得信心,他们获得的专业知识做出这些决定。他们学习如何,他们彼此更加透明和其余的组织,然后,然后,你知道,他们承担更多的责任和更多的责任。所以这是一个逐步从一个状态转换的,你知道,从本质上讲,我们不是,我们不是自我管理,我们变得越来越自我管理,最终可能是完全自我管理。还有一系列的水平。你可以认为它是一系列的成熟水平。 I don't really like that word, maturity. But but there's that in this case, I think what really works is that, you know, they have to mature their own capabilities, and is the leader, who and we actually talk at one point in the book about a catalytic leader is the leader who acts as a catalyst for helping the team to learn how to do those things. And that's, that's really the key, it really is a journey. And each team has to be on that journey themselves. You can't just like, all of a sudden turn it on for everybody. So every team has a different starting point, a different ending point. And, you know, one of the first things that the leader can do is help the team form itself. Instead of assigning people to the team, let the team choose its own members. It's all of this the most fundamental decision that the team can make. And yet if you don't let the team do that you really cripple them from from being able to mature later on. So there's lots of talk about this. But anyway, that's the thing. It's a it's, it's a learning journey for everyone. And, and the leader is really kind of a catalyst.
戴夫:西部
我想让我从书中,我有幸读它当它仍处于开发阶段。所以我可以写前言,这是,这是一个很棒的书。它有一些很棒的图。只是这是一个伟大的但好,一件事的统计,站到我这趟旅程元素和用户故事和真正说明这和许多书籍的领导,我非常阅读谈论它作为一个国家。和你说的,我想很好地概括了一切。这不是一个翻转开关,这是非常困难的。它不是一个翻转开关。这是一个渐进的规则集。实现和肌肉记忆发展已经发生。我认为这是令人难以置信的困难,但也非常有益。 But how do you ensure you're going? And this is, you know, Ron, maybe I know we're sort of doing a bit of a round robin here. And I apologize. If you don't want to answer this right? On You don't have to. But how do you know you're going in the right direction, as you go through it, you talk a little bit about and it's in the book, and you have some signposts and stuff and metrics and talked about, but maybe our listeners would be really interesting. You know, you've started that process that either through self organize that you've got a team, you're starting, how do you know you're going in the right direction? What are those signposts on the journey? That mean, you haven't got lost?
罗恩Eringa:
是的,这是一个非常有趣的问题,事实上,也许回答这个问题是不使用书中的故事本身,因为,当然,我将带走所有的阅读乐趣的人。但只是挖到我自己的经历之一。你怎么知道我们推进这个时候,我看到的情况下,例如,在COVID期间,当我还是一个经理,我自己,在这段时间,我是在家工作的地方,对的,有很多的团队需要解决的问题。他们的经理,我只能站在那里看着副业,他们在做什么。和你看到团队责任的时刻,我们获得的信任,他们可能已经失去了过去,因为我看到很多,对吧?许多组织告诉我,为什么他们在做敏捷也是因为业务和我们的团队需要合作。团队,我认为那一刻,你知道,支付,责任,去他们的业务部门去其他部门的组织,实际上涉及每个人建立真正的有价值的产品,当他们把责任和实际交付。这样的时刻,你知道,这是,这是有趣的地方。作为一个领导者,我看过很多,许多领导人同行,在过去,你知道,当时刻变坏时,他们介入,他们开始移动周围的一切,开始管理一切。但目前,团队成员开始这样做。 Even before you could even think of taking action. I think that's that's the moment where things become magical, I think. So that for me would be the right moment.
戴夫:西部
这很有趣,你说这,我,作为一个领导者,我说过这句话,我不喜欢惊喜。我真的知道我要忘记的。因为实际上,我喜欢惊喜,好的。当我的队友。现在你会说什么是好,什么是坏的,8月奖是好的。你只需要检查和调整和改进下一个惊喜,对的。但是当我的队友,你知道的,和我一起工作的人,做我喜欢的事情,哦,我的上帝,我不认为你应该这样做。哇。你所做的。当这是一个伟大的路标。 But it means that you have to sort of like, and I think, Lawrence, you said this, right? You have to sort of give up control? What can be uncomfortable. And the book talks quite a lot about this. There's sort of like that thread throughout that uncomfortableness. It's what do you think about giving up control and being uncomfortable, I don't like being uncomfortable. Yeah, and
劳伦斯Bonnema:
当然,实际上,即使你甚至可以去的。很多领导的书真的这样做,你不应该感到舒适真正成长。因此拥抱它,拥抱,不适。在某种意义上,这是事实,然而,同时,失去控制的概念,这并不意味着控制结束吧,然后没有了。这就是人们的恐惧。和领导人,当然,我们往往忘记这一点,但领导也是人,他们担心失去控制的时候,因为他们不知道他们会得到更多的回报,然后然后然后你倾向于,抓住它。,事情是这样的,你没有失去控制,你给控制与你共事的人。这是一个概念从大卫侯爵的书,在领导。但我真的很喜欢这一观点,因为从本质上讲,我们所做的是敏捷的领导人,你给别人控制。所以还没有失去控制。 Right? So right there, no fear, especially if you do it, right. So if you make sure that people know So within these boundaries within this bounded environment for action, you get you have full control, and I trust you to make the right decisions. And if you don't, that's the nasty surprise, of course, right that you mentioned. Then let's figure out how to make better decisions, but probably I would have made the same mistake as a leader. Now having that actually gives you as a leader much more control Because now everybody's thinking about making the right decisions, not just you. So the net result of this is way better decisions being taken much faster. And that in the end, to my mind is what Agile leadership is really about.
Kurt Bittner:
因为有一个加法。所以当我们使用词汇,像失去控制一样,这是一个非常负强化。我认为敏捷领导人的关键之一是意识到放弃控制,他们扩大他们的影响力,和增强他们的能力,完成的事情他们想做什么。所以敏捷的领导可以使团队,并帮助他们成长,接受新事物,如你,正如你提到的,你很好的惊喜,你看看创意,可以解决一个特定问题或实现呢?你得到每个人的创造力和敏捷的杠杆在领袖伟大的影响力帮助团队实现这些伟大的结果远远大于在敏捷团队可以取得领袖在领导发展,必须直接每个人他们在做什么。所以我认为这是,你知道,敏捷的领袖,一旦他们意识到,他们的影响力是放大了这个团队自我管理,它真的是一种解脱。但是你必须,你必须首先喜欢游泳,你必须学会放弃池的大小,为了实现这一更大的事情你想做的事。这放大的影响也许是胡萝卜,也许你知道失去控制是坚持。胡萝卜是原教旨主义的邮票,我认为是真正强大的人一旦掌握,我认为,
戴夫:西部
我认为基本上,这是你开始的位置对信任。我认为,你知道,我认为你甚至说这书中你认为信任而不是假设,而不是赢得信任,这句话,赢得信任,我认为,是完全是诅咒对很多的原则,我相信我的人,我关心他们,我想帮助他们,我出错的时候,我们一起去有点问题,我们可以借鉴,然后也许不是做一遍。我认为这是一个主题,我看见那种好看的现代领导信任,工业模式正好相反。我们不相信任何人,我们分解到最小单位工作,我们确保我们假设每个人的懒惰,我认为是一个短语,一个是甘特还是一个泰勒使用,对吗?不要相信任何人,懒惰。这并非如此。我认为敏捷领导,你知道,靠到的,大量的能量。所以我们来结束我们想保持这些播客短,我们可以谈上几个小时。我希望我们会有另一个也许训练成的一些特征,敏捷的领导者,一些更详细的东西,但是今天,我想让它专注于什么是敏捷领导的概述。如果你是,你知道,侦听器列表,如果你是想说,有一件事你可以从这本书对你是有用的一件事,那件事是什么? What would that thing is that you that you would you would share with our with our listeners today, you know, who wants to start about Lawrence? What do you think the one thing that you could leave our leader readers with listeners with?
劳伦斯Bonnema:
我想说,一切,这是一个旅程,给自己的礼物让自己学习,对吧?所以想做领导。
戴夫:西部
是的,这是一个承认你不完美,你会学习和脆弱性,布朗引用布琳,很显然,她爱的脆弱,但实际上是一个非常有用的特性,你可以他们可以为你服务的目的。很明显,这本书强化和谈论。库尔特,你会成为你的敏捷领导这一件事吗?
Kurt Bittner:
我想是的。敏捷领导人面临的挑战是,他们必须意识到他们是嵌入式。他们目前嵌入式系统中,这强化了传统行为和奖励他们。这是根深蒂固的,可能有些内容是开放的,比方说,我不会用这个词的错误。但基本上,我喜欢这句话,我的一个前经理,吉布森说事实是友好。所以没有所谓的不良信息。它只是信息。所以开放说,哦,是的,好吧,这不是我所期望的。但是我们,你知道,我们可以从这里学到什么?我们可以说,所有我们想要的,但是,你知道,这是条件,你知道,传统的组织领导人,你知道,这是缺乏可预见性。 It's about things. So I think that, you know, like Lauren said, they have to give themselves in a sense permission to be open to working in a new way. And when they recognize that Oh, and that makes me more discomfort, uncomfortable, that they sort of push through that and say, Okay, well, you know, this is an opportunity to learn. So I think that it's a related thing. It's a journey. But it's also something you have to recognize that almost everything you've been taught is leading you in a different direction. And you have to consciously try to work around that.
戴夫:西部
我认为实现从斯科特从幼儿园开始,我们习惯于在一个工业系统和工业模式。并接受,有些不同的东西,并挑战现状的一些想法。是,我认为,真的非常自由,和授权。现在,罗恩,你一直在这里留下一个短吸管。对不起,罗恩,最后一个,你有一些很棒的想法,从劳伦斯和库尔特,或任何添加?
罗恩Eringa:
嗯,是的。所以我在思考。这是件好事。你知道的,你问了一个问题。所以我有大部分的时间去想它。如果你问我为什么想写这本书首先,是因为我看到很多的组织这么多集中在结构,像,你知道,我们的订单是什么?我们的组合是什么?我们需要的结构是什么?的人力资源系统,这种很酷的东西,你知道的,我们常常把僵尸Scrum,这种实践。但是很多组织正在关注结构。 And I think an Agile transformation can only be successful when structure and culture go hand in hand. So what we've done in the book, is we took a deep dive into also, how do you change your leadership behavior, your mindset? How do you influence mindset in an organization? So how do you deal with the cultural changes that you will bounce into when you go into an Agile transformation? So besides the structure stuff, obviously, we should also mention, like, you know, how do you transfer the structure in your organization? How do you change the culture alongside because they go hand in hand, right? You notice this, this statement from Peter Drucker culture eats strategy for breakfast. That's basically what we talk about in the book as well. And the case study in our book describes all the difficulties that you will bounce into, especially if we talk about culture, when you try to introduce new structures in your organization. So yeah, that's, that's basically the reason why we wanted to write the book is to break through this structure only focused at many of the large corporates have when they tried to introduce Agile to their organization. So yeah, I think that would be my takeaway for it.
戴夫:西部
太棒了。今天的绅士,谢谢你花时间。这是一个伟大的书。为我们的听众,我推荐它,只是经过前言,显然是自己写的,但然后进入真正的书,这是辉煌的。我认为叙事风格,故事的情况下,研究中,您使用的例子,,然后退后一步,看看它是很清新的风格。我学到了很多。现在,我不确定我能一直执行其中的一些东西,但是我在每一天都是一个机会,对吧?所以谢谢你。所以我很欣赏,帮助我得到更好的在我的工作。谢谢你花时间。 So this is Dave West here, the host of the scrum.org community podcast. Thank you for listening. I think this will warrant another conversation we're talking to Kurt Bittner, Laurens Bonnema and Ron Eringa, about a new fabulous book from a professional scrum series called The Professional Agile Leader. Please get this from your local bookstores now or if you want on Amazon and other media outlets as well. So thank you, everybody for listening for tuning in today. And thank you for for Ron, Laurens and Kurt bye bye everybody.